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Post by joe5790 on Oct 8, 2018 13:52:16 GMT
How many here would like to see HaT make a few sets for the Pike and Shotte era, but more specifically the Thirty Years War?
So far they have done many sets for the Ancient era, a metric ton of Musket Era sets (though mostly for the Napoleonic Wars, and so far as I've been told no interest in making sets for Wars before the 7YW which is a shame), and a good number of sets for WW1, but nothing for the Pike and Shotte period.
There is a huge gap in the market for this period, and so far Zvezda has only made a single set, and Mars have made the majority of sets for the period, but their models are, for lack of an acceptable stronger word, terrible.
I think when HaT have completed some masters they have waiting to be converted into plastic sets, they should seriously consider trying to make a few sets for this period.
Anyone else feel the same that the Pike and Shotte era is criminally underrepresented in the hobby?
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Post by paintdog on Oct 8, 2018 19:43:51 GMT
I'm working on a Covenanter & an English Royalist armies for the ECW right now.
They are partly Revell, mostly metal (Tumbling Dice) & with a few Mars figures. The Mars figures, whilst not quite as bad as PSR says, are not great.
The ECW and TYW are great periods & would greatly benefit from a bunch of HaT sets.
donald
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Post by paintdog on Oct 8, 2018 21:16:37 GMT
I also have an ACTA & Revell Swedish army but sadly, no opponents anymore. Photos from my one game with them:    donald donald |
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Post by joe5790 on Oct 8, 2018 21:57:28 GMT
Cool. I've seen the Revell Swedish and wanted some of them. But they are not on sale anymore.
As for people to play against. I just get the armies and try to get people to try a game. Occasionally I get lucky.
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Post by paintdog on Oct 8, 2018 23:43:34 GMT
Cool. I've seen the Revell Swedish and wanted some of them. But they are not on sale anymore. As for people to play against. I just get the armies and try to get people to try a game. Occasionally I get lucky. I was lucky to acquire a huge bundle of figures from all 4 sets of Revell TYW for very little about 3 years ago. Enough to create Adolphus' Swedes & to add a substantial number to my Royalist ECW army. They are truly wonderful figures.
I have about 6 figures left over, however, and no possibility of getting more.
So, I should build an army to fight the Swedes? Who? Metals such as Tumbling Dice are nice but I broke the budget creating my (beautiful) Covenanters and half a Royalist army. There are virtually no attainable & nice plastics for the period.. That's what this thread is about. C'mon, HaT!
donald
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Post by joe5790 on Oct 9, 2018 6:19:45 GMT
I was only talking about myself. No one in my area wants to buy 1/72 scale models, so if I want to play any game I would need to buy both armies. I dont expect anyone to go out and buy a new army.
That's what I've done with the Roman and Carthaginian armies I have bought, as well as the Swedish and French for Napoleonics.
My next big hurdle is getting people to play historic wargames. Very few want to give it a go, and I suspect that's because fantasy and sci-fi games are just more popular. There's more scope of things to do, unlike historic games were everything is mostly set in stone.
But if I have an army sitting ready to go for them to use, it sort of lessens the issues because they don't actually need to prepare anything or get anything, which mostly makes things easier for me to get my gaming fix.
But yes, this period needs more plastic sets. And good ones preferably. So I do hope HaT will give it a shot.
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Post by paintdog on Oct 9, 2018 7:37:03 GMT
Hi, Joe, yes, I agree, it's always wise to have both sides & I usually do just this. I'm lucky enough to have a small group of friends to wargame with. They have their own "favourite" periods but generally are keen to wargame anything historical. We're not interested in Fantasy or Sci-fi: no superiority/inferiority intended, they just don't interest me. "everything is mostly set in stone." What do you mean by that? We don't use the "Imagination" approach (where you create fictional SYW nations & their armies for example) but that opens the doors, if you want fewer restrictions. Also we do game actual battles but even more frequently, we devise our own scenarios. This creates a 'what-if' flavour to our games. A certain flexibility should be a part of historical wargaming IMO. For example, I wouldn't want to add a Gatling gun to my Covenanters but I have included a 'Commanded Musket' unit even though it is not in the Troop List for the rules we use.
On my wish list for the period would be Covenanter cavalry. AFAIK, only Tumbling Dice have any in "our" scale. I'm going to add to two units I have of these some Mars Imperial Dragoons (with head swops to blue bonneted heads, & weapon swops) which will do, I hope (haven't arrived yet) until/if something better comes along....HaT?
regards, donald |
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Post by joe5790 on Oct 9, 2018 8:13:31 GMT
By "Everything is mostly set in stone" I mean that if you use a Napoleonic army, you generally will be against another Napoleonic army. Generally, there isn't much mixing and matching of the different periods (even though the games by Warlord Games can be mixed with each other without any difficulty). So if you want to play different periods, you have to buy multiple armies, even within the same eras. For example, armies of the 7YW are completely different in look to armies of the Napoleonic Wars, and the latter is different to the Crimean War or Wars of German Unification.
So there is no real scope for going off the wall. For example, if you wanted to use a French army of the War of the Spanish Succession, to stay historical you have to paint them white. Not only this, you have to get models that are historically accurate to the French as many armies do not look exactly the same (for example a British uniform of the time is different to the French or Austrians, or Swedish).
Now I don't mean to say that you couldn't just use whatever models you wanted and paint them up accordingly, or to your own specification and colour palette, but the perception is there that there are strict rules that collectors must follow.
In Fantasy and sci-fi settings, the only limit is your imagination and a lot more freedom, or perceived freedom, to do as you like.
A historical fantasy setting does get around the issue of different periods being meshed into one, but problem here is finding a set of rules or at least a convincing background for players to get behind. I certainly haven't found a historical fantasy world and I'm not good at making up my own stories.
So it's not that collectors and players don't have freedom, there's just a perceived lack of it due to the historical aspect.
Like in my original post, my wish list is for the Thirty Years War sets. Imperial, Spanish and Swedish armies. Maybe even the Dutch too. Have all versions of the Pike and Shotte tactics of the period (Tercios, the Dutch System and Swedish System)
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Post by paintdog on Oct 9, 2018 9:53:52 GMT
People do game with unhistorical armies. I know this is fairly prevalent in the Ancients period where your Samurai can battle my Normans. This isn't for me but I am reluctant to criticize anyone else's fun.
That's not to say I don't allow myself some leeway. My largely 1812-1814 Napoleonic French have fought the Austrians at Austerlitz. Our recent Mahdist game saw both Dervish & Riverine Arabs pitted against the Anglo-Egyptians whereas they mostly fought apart. Etc.
I would rate myself as "mostly historic" but I think anyone's approach to wargaming rests on what makes them happy.
BTW here's some stuff on Imaginations:
And finally.......thanks for starting this thread. It's a pity no-one else joined in. HaT's silence is probably a fair indicator of the chances of our getting anything for the TYW/ECW period.
donald
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Post by Chris D on Oct 9, 2018 10:01:00 GMT
I have just picked up on you pictures.
The they are not my period but look very nice indeed.
The Revell stuff is indeed excellent and a great shame that they are no longer in production.
The artillery are a masterpiece.
Best wishes,
Chris
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Post by joe5790 on Oct 9, 2018 10:18:43 GMT
Well, it was only started yesterday. So there is still time for HaT to join in.
However, there is only so much of the other periods they do before they have to move on to these periods.
They already have the ancients covered very well, and there isn't much more they need to do for the Napoleonic Wars with the MAC format. That format gives HaT an effective way to streamline their sets, especially since a lot of French allied armies wore their uniform or a variation of it. To they don't need to make hundreds of sets for all of the nations of that war. A few sets with different heads and other gear and they can just pump out more of the new sets and never need to go back to them.
So while we cannot predict what they will do, they may get to the Pike and Shotte period. As said its a huge gap in the market that needs some attention from a good manufacturer.
So far only Mars and A Call to Arms makes anything for that period and the former is terrible, and the latter is pretty good, but they focus more on the English Civil War.
Besides the one good thing about the Thirty Years War, is that all of the armies more or less look the same. So HaT can make a single box set of Pikemen and a box of Musketeers and just give them different head swaps, and make a few dedicated box sets for the really special units of the different armies. If they plan things out they don't need to spend a lot of effort on the model sets.
So I'm hopeful that they will pick up on it eventually. I'm also hopeful they'll do the Great Northern War as well. But that's a tougher one to predict.
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Post by traveller1865 on Oct 9, 2018 13:38:20 GMT
Yes, pikemen with ring hands made in 24mm to match the Revell figs, who knows Revell have been re-issuing some of their Napoleonic stuff so why not 30YW?
The Zvezda set had great sculpts but too big and no one wants to glue small 1/72 parts together, I say HaT should go in here and allow us to build those big big pike blocks.
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Post by minuteman on Oct 9, 2018 19:07:24 GMT
Great pictures of your Revell/ACTA armies Donald.
C17th Pike and Shot is in fact the only period that I do not model/game in 1/72, owing to lack of suitable figures. If all of the Revell sets were readily available this would be a different situation, but as it is I have gone for 15mm (more like 18mm) metals for this period, and have Thirty years War and ECW armies in this scale, with well in excess of 1,000 figures.
However: It is a period that is well overdue for some decent sets in plastic 1/72 scale. For clarity by the way, the period I am referring to here is not the whole C17th, but rather 1620-1650 or so.
While it is simplistic to suggests that 'all TYW armies look basically the same' (they just didn't) there is a degree of similarity for the mid period which would allow a couple of big sets of infantry, some cavalry sets and an artillery set to cover most things, at least for European armies.
I'd suggest: A big infantry set for the 'early' period (more armour) ie: 1620s and 1630s, pike, shot and command all in one set. A similar big set for the 'later' period ie: 1640s and 1650s, with some head swaps to allow, for instance, Scots forces (eg: TYW mercenary, ECW Covenanter) to be modelled. The 4 x Cavalry sets would be: Cuirassiers; Harquebusiers (lighter but still armoured cavalry); light cavalry (ie: leather buff coats and hats); dragoons. And finally, and an artillery set with 2 or 3 guns (medium and light), crews and a limber. If we were really lucky, there'd also be a baggage train/camp set!!
Scale wise: T match the old Revell sets and the current ACTA sets....that's just in case the Revell sets (infantry and artillery) are ever re-released!!
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Post by traveller1865 on Oct 9, 2018 19:18:23 GMT
Revell's artillery set is actually still available, if you want to support piracy that is, since Mars "re-released" it a few years ago in two separate sets. But tbh that set wasn't that good and I'd welcome brand new artillery crews, the cavalry are also still available in two sets from Mars and they are terrific.
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Post by minuteman on Oct 9, 2018 19:38:09 GMT
Thanks for the tip Traveller 1865, I didn't realise that Mars had re-released the Revell artillery. I have to say that I'm a bit wary of the Mars product generally, although I do buy their stuff occasionally. I do have some re-released Revell TYW Swedish Cavalry, which will be used as German mercenary cavalry one of these days for a C17th Polish army that I have planned (and still in boxes...and which ironically does include some Mars figures). But it's the two Revell infantry sets that are really needed back in production I think.
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Post by paintdog on Oct 9, 2018 20:20:40 GMT
While it is simplistic to suggests that 'all TYW armies look basically the same' (they just didn't) Great to see that the discussion has swelled.
Minuteman's point is a good one. It is very frustrating to see that Mars does take note of various national differences in their sets but release less than perfect figures.
I'm within weeks of finishing my two ECW armies. They are at a "gameable" level. By this I mean 800-1000 point armies (16units or so) that you can have a 3 hour game with. I do have armies with double this size or more for "mega games" or campaigns. I doubt I'll expand the armies for this period unless there's a new release of figures. In which case, all bets are off. A bigger G.Adolphus army (with Saxon allies). Foes from the Empire or the East. Larger Royalist & Covenanter armies to tackle the bigger battles. Add a Parliamentarian army to the strength. Etc.
We can dream.
donald
(BTW I'll post photos from the first ECW game I have: probably in November).
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Post by richard on Oct 9, 2018 20:37:31 GMT
I'm not that interested in the 30 years war period, but every time a set of Revell Imperials or Swedes is on ebay it sells for a small fortune. That implies to me that there is still demand for this period and that there is currently minimal stock out there available. Hat could do worse things then enter this market with a few big sets that cover all angles. But they would have to be as good as Revells versions which are brilliant. I have one set of each of their 30 YW range and have no intention of using them, but they are too good not have in my collection.
Of course the easiest thing would be for Revell to re-release them and make some quick and easy money. But they won't! Hat do already have a lot they've committed themselves to for the future so this could be a great opportunity for another manufacturer to come into the market. ACTA could try their luck again as most of their sets are pretty good.
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Post by traveller1865 on Oct 10, 2018 5:20:48 GMT
I don't think ACTA is active anymore, maybe Caesar, they do different periods, seems like HaT is busy elsewhere. We don't know Revell's stance on the 30YW sets, sadly they don't have they same communication with their customers like HaT do, I'd say that is typical of the big companies but Italeri at least answers when you ask them.
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Post by joe5790 on Oct 10, 2018 9:23:26 GMT
While I accept that my comment about every army looking the same is wrong, my point is that each army of the Thirty Years War was armed and armoured (or lack of) in the same manner, and therefore a simple paint job would do enough to distinguish between the units.
For example, if we look at the Revell Austrian/Imperial infantry box vs their Swedish Infantry box, the Pikemen are wearing the same body armour, but a different hat. There is a little difference in the Musketeers, but it's not major.
So, to make a decent set that can cover all armies in one go, HaT (and other manufacturers) can make a single large box set of Pikemen with different head swaps (Austrian/Imperial, Swedish, Dutch, Spanish, etc.) And the same can be done with the Musketeers.
I'm trying to think of an easy way that the Pike and Shotte period could be done to make it more appealing to HaT. One set that can cover everything in one go is better than a single box for every nation for very little appreciable difference at this scale.
This way they can get the backbone of the range done, and then move on to any specific units that are drastically different to other Nations equivalents.
I will admit that im not an exoert on the uniforms of the war, but in my mind this is the best way to get the Thirty Years War done the fastest and with the least issues.
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Post by mikem on Oct 10, 2018 10:46:28 GMT
The problem with Pike & Shot is that the period is very long. Early armies, especially the Spanish Tercios, have halberdiers, foot arquebusiers etc. which will not be required for a Thirty Years War or ECW army. TYW and ECW armies require varying ratios of Pike to Shot. I would suggest a set of pike and a separate set of shot, with command split between the two, each with a different officer, drummer and flag bearer. Then possibly an expansion set for the earlier Spanish elements, and at least two sets of cavalry. Sets could have a mix of headgear, with some more heads on the sprues.
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Post by paintdog on Oct 10, 2018 13:03:54 GMT
The problem with Pike & Shot is that the period is very long. You might be right. How long did the TYW go for? 
I like to be optimistic but even if HaT did get interested, barring a miracle, it would be several years before we'd see any releases.
So without re-releases from Revell, that leaves metal.
Not overly cheap, but I do recommend Tumbling Dice.
I haven't photographed mine yet but here's something fro the web:
The figures are of a height that matches Revell well & like most metals are a bit heftier but can easily appear together. They come without heads & you order headgear to suit: various helmets, monteros, bare headed, soft hats, Blue Bonnets or any mixture.
donald
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Post by joe5790 on Oct 10, 2018 14:06:49 GMT
The Sword and Shield Era went on way longer than the Pike and Shotte. Like millennia longer. That hasn't stopped HaT from making a lot of sets for it. Even so, I was only asking for sets in the tail end of it. So that limits the scope. paintdogI've seen Tumbling Dice mentioned a number of times, and I've even look on the website. The lack of images is annoying as hell (though that's a common problem on the internet and historical miniatures). Which scale do you think works best with the plastic sets? The 1/72 plastic sets do vary between the scales tumbling dice have up. I may or may not get them, as the Pike and Shotte project I have in mind isn't going to be started for quite some time, at which point I'm hoping more plastic sets are out. So I can afford to wait for HaT. I may even get some of the Mars sets and test them out in the mean time, but what I see on PSR doesn't inspire confidence. |
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Post by paintdog on Oct 10, 2018 23:31:04 GMT
I've seen Tumbling Dice mentioned a number of times, and I've even look on the website. The lack of images is annoying as hell (though that's a common problem on the internet and historical miniatures). Which scale do you think works best with the plastic sets? The 1/72 plastic sets do vary between the scales tumbling dice have up. Some comparison photos (with apologies for the picture quality: I really need a new phone)
Revell.....Tumbling Dice.....ACTA......Hinton Hunt Covenanter
As above
I think TD match very well with ACTA (I use them in the same units) & are not out of sync with Revell (I keep units separate).
donald
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Post by Steve W on Oct 11, 2018 3:07:20 GMT
I hadn't encountered the spelling "shotte" before. Can you pick up these figures at Ye Olde Modelle Shoppe???
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Post by Zaphod on Oct 11, 2018 8:23:17 GMT
It's just "Pike and Shot", no need for the Olde Worldism.
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