bessiere
Aedile
Painting my way from Vienna to Moscow
Posts: 70
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Post by bessiere on May 11, 2019 4:16:47 GMT
Building Napoleonic armies from scratch is no small venture. One must decide why they are painting figures (for gaming or for dioramas), which nation they want an army for and lastly, what period they want an army from (ex; the wars of 2nd coalition/ Waterloo/1812 Russian invasion, etc).
You've made your choices; let's say French army 1815- that precludes any of the pre-Bardin uniforms limiting your choices to uniforms to 1812 on. Alas! no bicorne hats! A little research is in order on your part to prevent you from buying boxes of figures you ultimately cannot use. For example this website gives you most of the uniforms of all the armies during the 100 days (1815)- centjours.mont-saint-jean.com/index.phpYou will have many questions and this and other forums are good places to get answers from experienced painters.
Ok, so you have your tools, your paints and research in hand and are dying to paint. Before you even cut the first figure from the sprue read the tips here: www.hat.com/Tips.html
Regardless of what kind of paint you are going to use you will need to wash your figures first. This is best accomplished while still on the sprue; soak in very hot water with dish detergent and scrub with a soft brush. Take care to not scrub so hard you break swords and bayonets off. The relative softness or hardness of the plastic will dictate how vigorously you can do this chore. Lastly, rise them off with more hot water to remove any soap residue. When figures are cast the molds are lined with a release agent to prevent the plastic from sticking to the metal molds - this is why you must bathe your figures first or you will likely find your hard work flaking off bit by bit every time you touch it.
Not all Exacto (razor craft knife) blades are created equally. The quality control on the sharpening process varies wildly and you may find there's not a razor sharp blade in a whole pack (this can be due to a multitude of factors). You will know you have a sharp blade when it simply glides through thin flash with little to no resistance. Mark that blade with a permanent marker and ONLY use it for cleaning up the flash and thinner mold lines from your figures. Keep your sharpest blades separated in a small box. Wipe them with a soft cloth and little machine oil or WD40 every few months to help preserve the edge. Trimming and cleaning your figures is an art in itself and using improper tools can waste tremendous amounts of time you'd rather spend painting!
One last thing before you paint! (and it's critical) You're going to want to prime them (an undercoat to help your paint adhere). You can spray it or brush it on and use any variety of colors. How you apply and what color will be a matter of personal taste though using a white primer will keep your colors brighter. Detail can be hard to pick out if you use very dark colors. Experiment to find what works for you by using the leftover sprue instead of your valuable figures.
Think that sprue is waste? It's a gift! Not only can you experiment with different primers to see which holds paint best but you can also test to see how well it finishes, what it's melting point is and how hard it is to cut. A little experimentation with sprues can give you the best possible results. If you should have a very rare set I strongly suggest spending time experimenting so your figures come out looking the best they possibly can.
Get good brushes for detail work. Red sable Kolinsky size 0 have worked well for me. Care for them well and they will pay you back in easier work and gratifying results. Use cheaper ones for drybrush work which is horribly abusive of brushes
Use paint thinner, especially if mixing small amounts of color. It's pricey but so is wasted paint that dries in minutes. I find it flows better from the brush when I use thinner instead of water and for small, hard to reach spots there is no substitute.
One final tip; write down what colors you use and on what parts you painted it with. This way you can be consistent if you paint a few figures from a set and get distracted only to come back later and wonder if those Austrian gun carriages were Valejo Yellow Ochre Model color or was it Heavy Gold Brown Game color? (this is from personal experience where I "touched up" 8 guns only to discover I had used the wrong paint!) The advantage is you can come back later and paint up another unit to match exactly with those you painted previously. Oh, use good model paints. The large bottles of cheap, hobby store stuff rarely cover well but are great for terrain builds.
I'm just returning to painting miniatures after a 45 year hiatus. I was getting bored with retirement until I remembered how much I enjoyed painting small plastic armies. If anyone has better methods please post and help me and everyone else who is just getting started in this fun and rewarding hobby. (Is it a hobby or an obsession? Methinks the latter - too late! I am afraid I'm infected and frankly I've never been happier). I have learned a great deal from the members here and I thank you for your contributions. I look forward to learning much, much more from all of you.
Cheers, Bessiere
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Post by Zaphod on May 11, 2019 12:23:38 GMT
Just a few additions/comments to your excellent post.
After washing your plastic figures many folk find it useful to paint them with PVC glue. Pure glue, no water added. It looks like it will blot out all the detail but it won’t. This provides some additional strength for the more flexible parts of your figure - especially bayonets and muskets - and because of its rubbery nature provides a flexible base for the paint to adhere to, reducing flaking. Of course this layer goes on before your first layer of paint primer.
Again, after painting it’s crucial to protect your fragile paint work with varnish. You can spray this on or paint it. Some folk swear by a layer of handpainted gloss varnish (yacht varnish even) followed by sprayed layer or two of matt varnish.
I find artist acrylics in tubes are pretty good for mixing your own colours, with a few caveats. First, avoid the acrylics intended for primary school kids, they are next to useless. The cheapie or “student” tube acrylics are generally okay, though browns, reds and yellows are often very thin with little colour saturation. But most are fine, especially blacks, blues. And everyone should own a tube of the old standbys such as yellow ochre, burnt umber, raw sienna. In general though it pays to buy “artist” quality.
A few bottles of Vallejo for your base colours is well worth the money. They cover well, have great colour saturation and thanks to the dripper bottle, they last forever. I have ten bottles in all and find that together with my artist acrylics I can produce every colour I need. (The only problem colour is brown - oddly enough I find it very difficult to get the correct brown hues by mixing, especially when I want subtle variations for horses and wood effects. Looking to pick up another bottle or two of dedicated modelling paint for that.) I avoid Citadel and other overpriced proprietary paints, not only because of their nonsensical names: the bottles have a tendency to dry out long before they’re half empty.
As for choosing your period. Well, having started my armies almost as long ago as you, when all that was available in plastic was Airfix, I don’t worry myself too much with the nuances of whether my Frenchmen are wearing post- or pre-Bardin. I try to stick to the same fashion within a unit, and don’t go before about 1806, when the fashions really were quite different. Of course Airfix forced me into Belgic shakos for my British line units, but that’s not gonna trouble me too much when I play a few Peninsular War scenarios. More important is whether you want a parade ground feel to your force, with bright colours and white trousers, or a more grungy “campaign feel” with greatcoats and overalls. The tendency of late has been the campaign look, but there’s a lot to be said for parade ground attire. Of course, if like me you have a lot of Airfix figures in the mix, you’re pretty well stuck with the full dress approach.
One last point. I find it really useful to have my separately-based officer and ADC figures in metal, as they get handled a lot more. The extra heft of the metal keeps the figures where you put them on the table. My officers are mostly Minifigs, which are slightly larger in scale. But since they are representing “big men” this doesn’t bother me too much.
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Post by Zaphod on May 11, 2019 12:38:56 GMT
Sorry, PVA glue not PVC!! It’s also know as school glue, white glue, Elmer’s glue.
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Post by cpn on May 11, 2019 13:34:38 GMT
Hi, Great topic. I put a cover of WOODLAND SCENIC PVA stickie glue before priming. It really stick it and there is no loss of details. I use the Vallejo polyurethane primer series that provides an additional cover that looks and feel like a full plastic cover. When all the figures are over I varnish them with Vallejo polyurethane Matt varnish and so far even ZVEZDA figures are resist the time and manipulations. I hope this helps. Great topic again. Have all a great hobby weekend. CPN
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Post by Zaphod on May 11, 2019 14:51:21 GMT
Proprietary PVA is a waste of money. You can buy exactly the same glue in a poundshop or hardware store for far less: a 0.5-litre bottle should cost no more than 2–3 euro/pounds/dollars and will solve all you modelling problems for several years.
Varnish in another matter as it yellows over time (usually about 10 years before it becomes noticeable). Old timers on this forum may help suggest which brands are best for plastic figures.
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Post by cpn on May 11, 2019 15:26:36 GMT
Hi, I mentioned the brand Woodland scenic because it is the only one I found that is really sticky. I tried other from hobby shops but really are not good at least for what I am looking for that is the sticky property. I give you it is pricy but this is the best I found for me. For normal regular PVA, yes I use whatever is available at low price. Kind regards. CPN
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bessiere
Aedile
Painting my way from Vienna to Moscow
Posts: 70
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Post by bessiere on May 11, 2019 15:51:43 GMT
PVC glue will melt plastics yet could lead to some interesting effects, no? If you're making sci-fi/zombies that might be a fun experiment. I had only read in one place of coating figs with PVA glue in regard to Zvezda sets because supposedly their release agent doesn't want to come off. I still have a hard time believing you won't lose fine detail. Facial features and buttons, emblems etc are already difficult to define at 1/72 thus my hesitation but I will give it a go on the word of you gentlemen (perhaps cut with a little water first, literally to test the waters, er glue)
I'm trying to avoid doing as much paint mixing as possible for the reason I want to maintain consistency (and save time). It's for those reasons I invested in around 70 bottles of Valejo model color despite having many tubes from years of painting canvas. Fortunately for me I don't have to keep a budget but for those with lukewarm commitment just using your old art set paints is likely a good starting point.
Like many of you I started with a set of Airfix and in 1967 I bought my first set; US Marines with the rubber assault raft that came in 2 pieces. I recall many a quiet evening painting while my father worked doing hand reloading. It's only recently that I was even aware of the variety of manufacturers and sets now available and compared to the offerings of back then it's like walking in to a dream world. Need Austrian or Prussian landwehr? Hat makes them and Kudos for their thoughtful selection of historical units. .
What began my journey here was a youtube video from Little wars tv I stumbled across one night where they were fighting the battle of Zama and the siege of Carthage. I had no idea people were playing wargames like that and damn, it looked fun! I love ancients and the ACW but you just cannot beat Napoleonic uniforms and the tactical challenges of musket era looked like a good fit for tabletop warfare (especially in 1/72).
Thank you for the kind replies!
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Post by Zaphod on May 11, 2019 16:52:26 GMT
Hi cpn, Perhaps there is some extra ingredient in Woodland Scenics PVA that makes it very sticky? Or perhaps it's just highly concentrated? There is a type of PVA used for certain construction tasks which has added solvents that stink to high hell when drying. Does the WS stuff smell more than ordinary PVA? I have two different bottles of cheap PVA from different manufacturers and I have noticed they are not of the same quality. One is slightly less pleasant to work with but I find it hard to define why, perhaps the concentration, the consistency and/or smell. Anyways, if you think it's worth it, then it quite simply is!
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Post by Zaphod on May 11, 2019 17:33:56 GMT
Hi bessiere, It's PVA not PVC glue, as mentioned in my correction. I don't think it will do any harm to plastic. But over a period of 15 to 20 years, who knows? I've heard that it's HaT's mould release agent that is particularly troublesome. Either way it should come off with a good scrub. The purpose of the PVA is chiefly to help the adherence of the paint and to make the cured paint layer more flexible. As it is, acrylic paint is significantly thinner and more flexible than the Humbrol enamel that we all used to use. I'm astounded at the dense globs of glossy paint on some of my childhood Airfix hussars. Again, I've heard it insisted that you should use full strength PVA not diluted. It looks terrible when you apply it but quickly dries into a thin, pretty well invisible layer. Try it on a few test figures first if you don't believe me. (Just don't try cutting or filing flash lines AFTER applying PVA as the stuff comes off like a skin.) As for the 70-bottle collection of Vallejo colours. Yes, I can see the point of it - if price and storage area are not a problem. I just grabbed my entire Vallejo collection plus key artist's acrylics and put them into my rucsac for a long weekend away from home. You really don't need very many, especially if you're doing a lot of shading on the figures. Pre-industrial age uniforms fade in mysterious ways, so most regiments would have quite a mix of shades. But I do understand if you like bright consistent uniforms of the same shade across your armies. It's why my 10-bottle set includes a French blue and a British red. I never use pure white as it's too bright (ivory does me fine) and similarly don't own a true black (dark panzer grey is enough, darkened with some cheap tube acrylic black when required). The fact it never comes out as exactly the same shade I see almost as a bonus! (OK, I lie. A few shades of green and brown are very difficult to match exactly, mainly because there are so many of them and the eye has evolved to be very sensitive in that region of the spectrum). If you're inspired by wargaming vids (I am!), I would recommend the Sharp Practice vids on the Beasts of War channel on Youtube. Also, if WW2 floats your boat, Chain of Command vids on the same.
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Post by endeavour on May 11, 2019 18:33:47 GMT
My only tip, from over forty years experience, is don't start something you don't think you can finish. Luckily with the number of manufacturers on the scene you can usually form most elements of most armies of most eras. But there's always something that irritates ....... just be prepared!
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Post by cpn on May 11, 2019 18:59:04 GMT
Hi cpn, Perhaps there is some extra ingredient in Woodland Scenics PVA that makes it very sticky? Or perhaps it's just highly concentrated? There is a type of PVA used for certain construction tasks which has added solvents that stink to high hell when drying. Does the WS stuff smell more than ordinary PVA? I have two different bottles of cheap PVA from different manufacturers and I have noticed they are not of the same quality. One is slightly less pleasant to work with but I find it hard to define why, perhaps the concentration, the consistency and/or smell. Anyways, if you think it's worth it, then it quite simply is! Hi Zaphod, The WS doesn't smell anything. I use it a lot because of its high efficiency sticky power. When dry, it is like repositioning glue feeling for picture if you see the concept. So it sticks to the figures but it also sticks the primer. I really like it and I have great results with finally lasting paint on my little armies. The drawback is that if you have this glue on your figures you are like Spider-Man with everything sticking to your fingers. Have fun. CPN
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Post by waynew on May 11, 2019 19:36:22 GMT
I've mentioned it elsewhere, but I don't coat my figures with blue; instead, I prime my figures with a spray plastic-bonding paint such as "Fusion." I usually use a darker brown, flat as it provides a good backdrop that highlights detail, particularly on lighter colored plastics without being too stark. I've also used the brown undercoat to give my troops a "weathered" look like they've been in the field on campaign for awhile instead of stepping straight out of the laundry.
I also don't varnish for the same reasons stated above, but use a clear acrylic spray sealant (I learned this trick from my artist days sealing my sketches and watercolors) - here you can use gloss, matte, or flat. I prefer matte, but be careful of your brand as some leave a film. I've found some that have worked well, but for me the best is "Plaid Patrician Nimock's" sealers.
To each his own, but I struggled for years (since the 1960s) to find a system where paint would stick to plastic figures. Enamel was no good so I moved to acrylics; the original acrylics were too thin and lacked pigment for my taste. I moved to craft enamels and found they worked better but would rub off the figures. the spray primer fixed that and since I started spray sealing I've had virtually no issue with chipping or cracking.
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bessiere
Aedile
Painting my way from Vienna to Moscow
Posts: 70
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Post by bessiere on May 11, 2019 19:44:55 GMT
Thanks Zaphod, that's good advice on the Whites and Black. I accidentally picked up off white instead of ivory and began painting away on some Austrians - ooops! The White and Black are both too cold and the German Black looks like a better choice as the Ivory is. I did that same mistake long ago grabbing some Mars Black while working on a canvas and ruined it. I should have remembered that lesson but it was back in high school.
I did see your correction about PVC, was just wondering about the concept of trying it out.
Thanks!
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bessiere
Aedile
Painting my way from Vienna to Moscow
Posts: 70
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Post by bessiere on May 11, 2019 20:15:50 GMT
Thanks waynew, I hear the voice of long experience speaking here. I will give your methods a try. I have no idea how long the figures I have already done that were only cleaned, primed then painted will last. I do intend to game with them and would prefer to avoid the bitter disappointment of seeing the gunmetal silver-gray from the bayonets clinging to my fingers.
The Army Painter White I tried came out granular for lack of a better word. Figures look like they're covered in fine sugar. Maybe the humidity was too high and it was clumping I really don't know. It did not adhere well to the plastic at all. The Testors gray worked fine and came out very smooth
I have done some testing with brushed on varnish and the gloss is out imo - way too shiny. I had the thought of doing shako covers, polished leather and metal bits with semi-gloss and everything else with matte. I will try that with the spray fixative on top and see how it works out.
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bessiere
Aedile
Painting my way from Vienna to Moscow
Posts: 70
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Post by bessiere on May 11, 2019 21:31:39 GMT
My only tip, from over forty years experience, is don't start something you don't think you can finish. Luckily with the number of manufacturers on the scene you can usually form most elements of most armies of most eras. But there's always something that irritates ....... just be prepared! Start something like building Austrian, French, Russian and Prussian armies? At least I'll keep busy right up until the end, eh? I have 80-90 boxes staring at me screaming "paint me". The little buggers are beginning to haunt me in my sleep but I'm only happy when I'm obsessed. I at least had the sense to draw the line at the Spanish ulcer despite the fact i really want to play a siege of Zaragosa.
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Post by grumble on May 11, 2019 21:52:04 GMT
One reason that I like HäT figures is the boxes they come in -- really, not kidding, though admittedly not as important a reason as, say, the quality of the figures. ;-) Most of the HäT box fronts are white with just a representative figure portrayed -- no background. When I begin to paint the figures, I write on the white part of the box the color and brand that I use to paint each part of the figure. That way, the next time I'm dealing with more of those figures I don't have to remember what color I used -- in order to keep consistency. This notating is really important in my case because I have about 10 different "tan" and "khaki" colors of paint, 5 of blue, 20 of brown, etc. (If the figure on the box does not portray some piece of equipment that appears on some of the figures, I simply write it in a corner of the box cover. I also write down the brand and color of the figures' base. I also write the company's code number for the paint color, because when I go to buy more "Teddy Bear Tan" it may have been renamed "Golden Brown" but the code number is usually retained. The old Polly S acrylics pulled this stunt, renaming the yellow "Mud" color "Bugbear Fur" in one case!)
This practice has saved me a lot of time that would be wasted painting little swatches of color (many months after painting the original figures) in order to check the color once it dries -- or, worse, painting a whole unit that uses the wrong colors. In WW1 and WW2 a lot of the uniforms have a very subtle difference. I need to be able to distinguish armies not only by the figures but also by the variations in color (say, of khaki tan, for example).
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Post by davidmac on May 13, 2019 20:29:07 GMT
These days, my first rule is to make sure I have an opponent interested in the same period and rules.
The second step is to pick suitable armies. If one wants to paint up British, and the other wants Portuguese, that doesn't make for much combat.
I like the painting tips. One thing, after I wash plastic figures with detergent, and rinse, I further rinse in 91% ispropyl alcohol. The z-series xacto blades stay sharp longer. Or, use surgical blades--even sharper than xacto.
These days, tho, I've decided that while I will trim off sprue attachments, and major flash, I no longer trim mold lines on plastic figures. If the figure is poor enough to require such trimming, I don't buy it. Life is too short.
Consider priming in one of the primary colors of the uniform.
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Post by Zaphod on May 13, 2019 22:23:38 GMT
These days, tho, I've decided that while I will trim off sprue attachments, and major flash, I no longer trim mold lines on plastic figures. If the figure is poor enough to require such trimming, I don't buy it. Life is too short. Availability of figures is often very difficult. Many go out of production for years at a time. And when they do return the moulds are often so worn they will, inevitably, have a little flash. Today, I heard that Revell is permanently suspending the sale of all its figure ranges; some of their older figure packs were getting especially bad in terms of flash, but I will still mourn them. Trimming mould lines is a pain in the asche, but waiting for promised figure ranges that never turn up is even worse. Looking back at all the figures I’ve bought over the past two years, both plastic and metal, I think it would be true to say that every single one has required some trimming or cutting off of unnecessary mouldings, in one form or another. It’s just part of the hobby.
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bessiere
Aedile
Painting my way from Vienna to Moscow
Posts: 70
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Post by bessiere on May 13, 2019 23:20:26 GMT
Maybe as I paint more figures I will grow weary of trimming mold lines but being somewhat retentive my nature just won't let them stay if at all possible. Like Zaphod I too see it as just part and parcel of the hobby. One thing it does is make each and every figure unique and puts your personal mark on to it.
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Post by grumble on May 14, 2019 1:55:39 GMT
The z-series xacto blades stay sharp longer. Or, use surgical blades--even sharper than xacto. Consider priming in one of the primary colors of the uniform. I second both of these observations. Have a stash of surgical blades. invaluable! I do a messy undercoat in the primary color of the uniform, using an old scruffy brush. Then paint in details more carefully.
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Post by Zaphod on May 14, 2019 6:25:48 GMT
Just undercoated some Frenchies in vibrant blue. Last time I make that mistake. Had to paint their white trousers at least twice with thick layers and there’s still splotches of blue showing through. Next time I think I’ll go with light grey (forgot my spray cans elsewhere). Even black works better as any remaining splodges in the recesses just look like deep shadow.
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Post by Jean-marc on May 17, 2019 20:19:20 GMT
Just undercoated some Frenchies in vibrant blue. Last time I make that mistake. Had to paint their white trousers at least twice with thick layers and there’s still splotches of blue showing through. Next time I think I’ll go with light grey (forgot my spray cans elsewhere). Even black works better as any remaining splodges in the recesses just look like deep shadow. for my part i use pva glue diluted 50/50 with water (hot, then let it cool) as a varnish. It's a bit glossy but not much, and really helps protecting figures
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Post by Matt on May 19, 2019 15:46:54 GMT
What glue are you using for glueing soft plastic figures? Which one is the best? I found it very hard to glue cutted arm of figure or something like that in soft plastic.
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Post by nshighlander on May 20, 2019 1:16:05 GMT
Hi I`m looking at puting my army on a base now. What size of a base would people recommend Please? Thanks for the help. Cheers Dave
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Post by grumble on May 20, 2019 1:50:12 GMT
Hi I`m looking at putting my army on a base now. What size of a base would people recommend Please? Thanks for the help. Cheers Dave It depends on what rules you plan to use the most to play them. Find out what people are playing locally and follow their lead.
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