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Post by Neilad on Jun 26, 2020 3:30:27 GMT
So I see on the post about "Action" sets naming that HaT have indicated that there would not be an Action set for ACW. That's fair enough and the be honest if you can get hold of other sets there is probably a load of these available anyway. The marching sets would be very welcomed as up until recently these were almost non existent apart from the odd pose in some of the other sets. This does bring me to the other main arm of service in the ACW, Artillery. Cavalry probably isn't much better but you could get away with whats available and hopefully the other active manufacturer comes through with a Confederate set at some point. Artillery though is very poorly represented in 1/72. I know this was a topic on the forum several years ago and the situation really hasn't changed even with the advent of a couple of newer sets. Yes there are sets, most not that readily available anymore, so lets take a closer look at this to see just how poor they are. We have the following.
Airfix - These are out of production. Can find on ebay occasionally. Artillerymen are not accurate with pant straps and lifeless poses. These are old and show their age. The carriage is basic but probably a little bigger than it should be. The barrel is probably the closest representation to the 3inch ordinance from my perspective. This set does include a limber but it is crudely assembled.
Accurate/Revell - These are currently out of production so while you can get them, its not easy. 3 of the 4 artillerymen are in shell jackets which is good, but 3 of the 4 are also in knee high boots which is odd and certainly not common. The artillery carriages are the correct length but should be a little thicker through the middle, there's no prolong rope and the prolong handles and trail handles virtually non existent except for some small raised bumps. The barrels are small and don't represent any of the major ones used at all. It is a source for limbers but like the Airfix version has a crude assembly, with an odd rider pose and the horses are not the best. It is however the only set that has wheels with the proper 14 spokes. So this set is semi useful if you can get it.
Italeri - There is two sets here. The artillerymen are next to useless unless you want all your artillerymen in winter coats. The gun carriages are way too big with the wheels extending way to wide of the main carriage. If you get just the normal artillery box you will get a limber which is a good representation. This box comes with 2 napoleons. The shape is accurate but they are way too big. About 4.5mm too long, which in this scale is about an extra 12 inches (1 ft). Some may be ok with that but proportionally it makes the barrel too wide as well. If the get the other larger set you will get a 10lb Parrot. That is probably more accurate, but there's no limber in this set, so a lot to purchase to get one accurate barrel.
Imex - I believe these are now out of production also. Some sets are still around but no new ones being made as far as I'm aware. There's a Confederate and Union set, yet you'll only find one artilleryman out of both sets in a shell jacket. Considering this was the most commonly used coat in the field artillery its hugely under represented. The carriages are similar in size to the Accurate/Revell and the barrels have the same issue being small and non-representative of ACW artillery. You will get limbers but with horses similar to the Accurate/Revell set, shortish legs and plump bodies, like they have been well feed.
Then we have the HaT sets - One is a siege weapon (30lb Parrot) so not much use for field battles and the other uses a barrel (Whitworth) that is welcome but was rare in the field. The carriage is a replica of the Imex version. ie it is the Imex carriage with an elevation screw added so carries the same issues. The crew are ok, at least there isn't a sack coat to be seen. Most people would be hard pressed justifying purchasing more than one box of each unless you want the crew.
So from all these you could piece bits together from each of the sets to get one good artillery crew and gun carriage, but generally speaking none do a good job of providing appropriate crew, with a proper carriage and accurate barrels representative of the ACW. The average PSR score of about 5.5 is about right across the board. That's pretty low and would be lower if only focused on the guns. One could give up and go to metal, but I can tell you that even there most are inaccurate. I'm heading down the path to create my own barrels to use with modified plastic carriages because there really is little option without having to spend a small fortune on better metal or possibly the pieces from Speira, but even then most of these have carriages that are too long. It would be great to have a manufacturer like HaT to finally give us 1/72 ACW enthusiasts an artillery set to match the very well anticipated Marching and Command Infantry sets. I know that there are many other requests for other eras but the artillery for this conflict is seriously lacking in both decent crew (aiming or loading) and accurate guns and at this time HaT is probably the only 1/72 plastic manufacturer capable of executing such a set. There is a market for ACW and hopefully sales of the upcoming HaT sets will show that.
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Post by paintdog on Jun 26, 2020 5:57:03 GMT
What Neilad wrote.
I'm not the expert he is but even I know 1/72 ACW artillery is pretty poor & there is a real opportunity for HaT to produce the definitive sets).
donald
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Post by bongman on Jun 26, 2020 6:19:58 GMT
What would you envision as the perfect set(s)?
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Post by Deleted on Jun 26, 2020 7:38:45 GMT
ACW is not my personal project at the moment, but i wouldnt rule it out for the future.
So that being said, I think ACW artillery with standard typical field cannons of the time, with crews dressed in more of a summer type uniform. As someone else said, whats already out there is either in winter dress or more a specific type of artillery. Many are as said, out of production.
Also, while on the topic, even though an action set was not considered at the time of the Marching & Command sets design, why not just consider it now? Yes the other 2 sets are done, but if you can draw up a good action set to go with them, im sure they would sell very well.
The MAC format of Hat is probably the companys best idea and selling style. It would then be foolish to start forgetting it or "dropping letters" from it!! In fact i think it would be good to extend & adapt the idea to cavalry. So cavalry on the march/standing awaiting orders to charge, in action as in charging or actually in hand to hand combat, and then command.
You invented the best format for figure production. Dont let it go to waste!!
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Post by waynew on Jun 26, 2020 21:14:21 GMT
I concur with preceding comments. An ACW field artillery set would be great - particularly if you could do for ACW FA what you have done for some of the Napoleonic Field Artillery offerings with gun and crew boxes and limbers and caissons sets.
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Post by richard on Jun 28, 2020 8:30:59 GMT
A well put argument Neilad. Not my era of interest, but sounds convincing!
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Post by plasticpanzers on Jun 29, 2020 9:16:52 GMT
These are not massed produced but are printed. They are magnificent. Sadly the originator died recently but they are still being produced to order until we see some more sets from, hopefully, HaT.
forgot to add they can produce them in 1/72, 28mm, 1/32 to order.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 29, 2020 10:38:27 GMT
These are not massed produced but are printed. They are magnificent. Sadly the originator died recently but they are still being produced to order until we see some more sets from, hopefully, HaT.
forgot to add they can produce them in 1/72, 28mm, 1/32 to order.
Speira Miniatures make some great stuff, this gun being no exception. Also do a fantastic choice of figure poses for ACW too, including hand to hand combat and lots of wounded poses.
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Post by Neilad on Jun 29, 2020 14:07:00 GMT
@rich thanks I have been thinking about this for some time.
bongman I have given this some thought and I'll see if I can put some drawings together before sharing
plasticpanzers I agree Speira have produced some great figures and I have purchased some, however I didn't get any guns because as I indicated the carriages are too long. The first time I looked at them I thought they were fantastically detailed models but something didn't seem right. Below is a link to a picture showing the Speira print as they have on their website and the picture out of the Osprey books. The Osprey image is true to scale with proportion and dimensions. I've tried to match this image up with one from Speira (a Whitworth in this case as it was the closest side view but the carriages are all the same), making the wheel size the common attribute. Even though the Speira image is on a slight angle, which should technically make the carriage look shorter you can easily see its 2-3 scale feet longer than it should be. Either that or the wheels are way too small. In any case its not proportionally correct, and at 4.50 Euro per piece with no crew (excluding postage), its got to be a lot more accurate before I'm going to part with that sort of money.
So does that mean I would like to see them perfect. No, compromises are sometimes needed but I'd like to be able to get guns and crew close to accurate in proportions and scale without spending a fortune. Especially because I'm a big army sort of guy so 15-20 gun units per side (2-3 guns each) would be the norm. I certainly believe HaT could produce a very good set.
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Post by davidmac on Jun 29, 2020 16:20:18 GMT
For artillery, I think the most important issue is having the most common guns, which I understand were the 12# Napoleon, 10# Parrott, and 3" ordinance gun. As for MAC cavalry, a set of dismounted cavalry is an important component. Yes, there were charges, but dismounted fighting was much more common. They were, in the old sense, dragoons. If there were three boxes of ACW cavalry, I'd suggest marching, dismounted, and charging, with appropriate officers, standards and musicians in each. ACW is not my personal project at the moment, but i wouldnt rule it out for the future. So that being said, I think ACW artillery with standard typical field cannons of the time, with crews dressed in more of a summer type uniform. As someone else said, whats already out there is either in winter dress or more a specific type of artillery. Many are as said, out of production. Also, while on the topic, even though an action set was not considered at the time of the Marching & Command sets design, why not just consider it now? Yes the other 2 sets are done, but if you can draw up a good action set to go with them, im sure they would sell very well. The MAC format of Hat is probably the companys best idea and selling style. It would then be foolish to start forgetting it or "dropping letters" from it!! In fact i think it would be good to extend & adapt the idea to cavalry. So cavalry on the march/standing awaiting orders to charge, in action as in charging or actually in hand to hand combat, and then command. You invented the best format for figure production. Dont let it go to waste!!
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Post by Deleted on Jun 29, 2020 17:55:44 GMT
"As for MAC cavalry, a set of dismounted cavalry is an important component. Yes, there were charges, but dismounted fighting was much more common. They were, in the old sense, dragoons. If there were three boxes of ACW cavalry, I'd suggest marching, dismounted, and charging, with appropriate officers, standards and musicians in each."
Oops sorry!! I ment to suggest cavalry sets as a whole, not just ACW. So yes the MAC format would need to take the subject its depicting into account. So as you say, dismounted would need to be considered for any ACW cavalry.
I guess i was just trying to emphasise that the MAC format needs those action sets to keep the successful format, & that it could indeed be adapted for cavalry.
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Post by plasticpanzers on Jun 30, 2020 7:21:03 GMT
Actually the Whitworth has a different and longer carriage than that muzzle loader. Quite a few do not have the stubby rounded back frame. Many appear to have a much longer carriage than you would expect for muzzle loaders. I have corresponded with them about offering some Napoleonic artillery and crew and I believe that they have at least one gun ready to release soon already. Check these pics. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Field_artillery_in_the_American_Civil_War#Whitworth
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Post by Neilad on Jun 30, 2020 18:06:22 GMT
The field artillery in the ACW had 3 carriage sizes all with the same wheels and the one used primarily was the smaller one which in 1/72 scale should be about 35mm in length. This is the one that the 3 inch, 10lb parrots and most other rifled guns would have used. The IMEX carriages although thin are the correct length. The heavy Napoleons, as I understand it, were on the next size up which in 1/72 would be about 2.5mm longer. I can't say for sure which carriage the Whitworths were mounted on but here's a photo of one of the Whitworths on display at Gettysburg and it appears to be on the smaller carriage.
Its hard to tell from the photos whether the Speira carriages are smaller on the other guns or the same but they all still appear to be longer. Adjusted photo with parrot and Napoleon guns. Happy to be corrected if someone has the actual models and they are within the above dimensions.
Most of the metal guns I've seen, including ones from Massimo sold by Hagens out of Germany (which I have a couple) are too long also. These are 44mm in length, and the Napoleon barrel is nice and slender but longer than the Italeri so also too long.
This might be getting too much into detail. My point being that there isn't readily available plastic 1/72 artillery that is accurate, and even if one will accept the alternative resin or metals (some of which I have) these aren't inexpensive. HaT have shown previously they can do good artillery and crew hence the post.
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Post by plasticpanzers on Jul 1, 2020 4:38:10 GMT
Ah...stupid me. I had one of their Whitworth guns in a box I received from them last year. Middle of last year I think. I had been working on my Naps and put my ACW away during the time my wife had 3 major surgeries. Here are some of the measurements.....carriage from absolute front to tow ring in back is 52mm. From the center of the barrel pivot to the tail ring is 40mm. The barrel itself from muzzle to end of breach handle is 40mm. Almost 20mm wide from left wheel mount to right. Wheels are 21mm and have 14 spokes. I received 4x 3in ordnance guns as well as a few standard bearers. Printed under the carriage are two ramrods 1 round retriever spiralrod, and one bucket. Comes in a nice dark grey. On their site they say they can do any scale needed for smaller or larger scale versions.
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Post by Neilad on Jul 16, 2020 2:45:33 GMT
So I said I would put some drawings together of what I think could be done and I've now done this. My approach was to try and get at least 6 figures to a sprue with a couple of barrel types and a single gun carriage. This means a single mold per box. I aimed to give enough variation, through separate arms, to have crew of Aiming, Loading and Firing poses. Some are dedicated, some are not. I even made the attempt to give a visual of what a sprue may look like and this should fit onto a standard HaT sized sprue using a standard box. My thinking was 3 sprues per box would give 3 guns and crew. So there would be a Confederate box that would contain figures that could be made up for loading or firing poses and would contain a Napoleon Smoothbore and a 12pdr Howitzer. The Union box would contain figures to make up either Aiming or Firing poses and would contain a 3 inch Ordinance and 10pdr Parrot barrel.
Although some of the separate arms are meant for a particular pose as you can see from my drawings, you may still be able to interchange these with other poses to get more variation. I did take some of the Perry Miniature poses for inspiration.
Obviously you could use either box for either side and head swaps would create yet more variation.
So from the drawings my proposed Confederate box would contain Figure 1, 5 (with arms C & D), 6 (with arms E & G), 7, 8, 9 (with arms A & B), along with barrels 2 & 4 The proposed Union box would contain Figures 2, 3 (with arms H & C), 4, 5 (with arms D or C (with figure3)),6 (with arms E & F), 9 (with arm A). I think I forgot to remove arm G but could stay.
An additional box could contain a limber with riders and you could use any additional figures from these artillery sets to be attending to the ammunition if you wanted to depict the limber stationary.
I'm happy for HaT to use these as a starting point if this will give some impetus to an ACW Artillery set being created.
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Post by Tripod on Jul 16, 2020 23:28:37 GMT
Don't want to be picky but your drawings look so close to the Perry 28mm ACW artillery set that copyright may be an issue.
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Post by Neilad on Jul 17, 2020 5:23:58 GMT
Hi Tripod, Thanks for the comment. I was up front in stating that poses were inspired by some of the Perry range. The Perry figures come in the following sprues
You can make up a multitude of poses with the set parts, this doesn't give Perry Miniatures copyright on every single pose that can be created with these parts. If someone was to copy the sprues exactly with the same bodies and parts regardless of scale then yes I would say there would be an issue. The drawings I initially provided had some similar poses but changes were made to make them different. To remove any ambiguity, I've modified the drawing in the post above further. Again this was a proposed starting point. By the time HaT would create CAD equivalent masters etc, any similarities would again be propagated.
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Post by Ironsides on Jul 17, 2020 6:01:39 GMT
Poses are not the problem or even a similar idea, direct pantographing of a perry original would be the only breech of copyright that would count... seperate arms I think is overdoing it myself unless it actually improves the figure as you can always swap body parts in anycase
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Post by minuteman on Jul 17, 2020 8:46:13 GMT
Interesting drawings and ideas Neilad. This is clearly something of a 'quest'.
In an ideal world everything 1/72 would be like Perry 28mm stuff, but at 1/72 prices. This will clearly not happen so we remain with an individual choice between "28mm, great, but more expensive" or "1/72, almost great, needs a bit of work, significantly cheaper".
But....until something better comes along - and I emphasise here that I would like HaT to make ACW artillery one day - what is 'wrong' with using Jacklex guns, limbers and possibly horse teams; and converting artillerymen as required from infantrymen, as we all used to do in the good old days?
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Post by Neilad on Jul 17, 2020 9:00:12 GMT
Poses are not the problem or even a similar idea, direct pantographing of a perry original would be the only breech of copyright that would count... seperate arms I think is overdoing it myself unless it actually improves the figure as you can always swap body parts in anycase The separate arms allows for poses to be used for a different role. Without taking this approach you'd have to create a new set of figures to be able to cover Firing, Aiming and Loading crew roles properly. I'm all for body part swaps but not everyone is, and adding a ready made arm is easy. Would love individual poses if we could get them. My approach was to keep within the constraints HaT has used previously, which is up to 6 figures, 1 gun and small additional parts on a single sprue. With 2 sprues you can cover both sides of the conflict, all 3 aspects of Artillery operation, with effectively 10 poses (2 of which have a different head), and all major gun barrels, which gives the customer maximum coverage while minimising the manufacturer outlay. More individual poses means greater design time, more sprue space required which means either bigger boxes, bigger sprues or more molds, all that adds cost.
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Post by Neilad on Jul 17, 2020 9:54:39 GMT
Interesting drawings and ideas Neilad. This is clearly something of a 'quest'. In an ideal world everything 1/72 would be like Perry 28mm stuff, but at 1/72 prices. This will clearly not happen so we remain with an individual choice between "28mm, great, but more expensive" or "1/72, almost great, needs a bit of work, significantly cheaper". But....until something better comes along - and I emphasise here that I would like HaT to make ACW artillery one day - what is 'wrong' with using Jacklex guns, limbers and possibly horse teams; and converting artillerymen as required from infantrymen, as we all used to do in the good old days? Hi Minuteman,
This has been a desire for many years. I had discussions with another fellow forum member Milhouse a number of years ago about trying to convince a manufacturer to produce a good artillery set but I didn't push so hard back then. I thought that when another manufacturer announced they were doing artillery that we would get something useful to use. It didn't turn out that way. We got a couple of good but very unique pieces.
Absolutely nothing wrong with the Jacklex guns as you know I'm a fan, but really only comes with the Napoleon being useful. According to Mr Dodson the Parrot is too wide and looking at the additional photos on the Jacklex site I would probably agree. The other issue is I don't live in the UK, so its an additional 30% in postage, and at $5 AUD per gun+ postage and no crew, its still an expensive exercise to only get one gun type. What about all the other gun types. I want a parrot I have to spend $25-$30 on an Italeri set that is not readily available today and I get maybe one or two figures that could be used elsewhere and 2 Parrot barrels because the carriages are ordinary.
As for crew, show me a set readily available today that I can create a full aiming, firing or loading crew with, all in appropriate attire. The IMEX set has 2 firing poses and one loading, + some guy with a water barrel, all in sack coats. Show me the figures that represent one with thumb over vent, holding the hand spike in a realistic manner, aiming the gun, handling the round. You might if your lucky get one of those poses in a set but that's a lot of sets to get to only get that pose. I may as well just spend the money on metals. Even then you have to look hard. I'm all for converting but that takes time and if there was a set available in 1/72 to match all the good infantry ones now on or coming to market it would be great. So I do believe this is a valid 'quest', as you put it. If HaT say they aren't interested, I'll relent and just purchase a bunch of metal guns, do barrel conversions and probably convert a whole bunch of figures. Not ideal but at that point there won't be any other options. HaT are the last realistic hope in this area, and there is a market for this because no one has done it right beforehand. So HaT, what is the likelihood of getting a couple of decent ACW Artillery Set produced?
Thanks
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Post by minuteman on Jul 17, 2020 12:18:48 GMT
Hi Neilad,
Your 'quest' is admirable, as are the carefully thought-out sprue drawings you have provided. I hope that, one day, HaT will find themselves able to turn these into the definitive sets of ACW artillery in 1/72 plastic that do not yet exist.
The Jacklex gun option is in fact one that you led me to via on-line discussions, and for my part (living in the UK) I now know where my ACW artillery is coming from. I enjoy figure conversion, and so producing a few dozen gunners from infantry figures is not arduous. I will also use some of the Jacklex crew here are there. This will be adequate.
However, I accept that for anyone who wants/needs crews which are more accurate and in specific phases of the preparing/loading/aiming/firing cycle, then properly designed and produced sets are the way to go.
Good luck. regards,
Minuteman
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Post by paintdog on Jul 19, 2020 11:01:59 GMT
As for crew, show me a set readily available today that I can create a full aiming, firing or loading crew with, all in appropriate attire.
I've just managed to acquire - with difficulty - the Revell SYW Austrian artillery set.
This, of course, has the type & range of crew figures Neilad desires for the ACW, a good limber & some OK guns.
So, yes, how good would it be if HaT or someone else, produced something like this for the ACW in 1/72 plastic.
donald
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Post by Malcolm on Jul 22, 2020 10:46:31 GMT
I would say that the only problem with the Revell SYW Austrian artillery set is that they represent the small 3 lb battalion guns rather than the larger field pieces. A great set in that you get enough diverse crew figures to show one gun being fired, another being aimed and the being loaded with 5 crew per gun with still some spare crew figures for other projects. Meanwhile the Hat SYW Prussian artillery has not progessed in about a decade and only has 4 crew members!
Best of luck getting any movment before the bicentenary.
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Post by paintdog on Jul 22, 2020 11:43:34 GMT
I would say that the only problem with the Revell SYW Austrian artillery set is that they represent the small 3 lb battalion guns rather than the larger field pieces. A great set in that you get enough diverse crew figures to show one gun being fired, another being aimed and the being loaded with 5 crew per gun with still some spare crew figures for other projects. Meanwhile the Hat SYW Prussian artillery has not progessed in about a decade and only has 4 crew members! Best of luck getting any movment before the bicentenary. Exactly, Malcolm.
I'm going to see about getting about 3 metal guns....6 pounders?
The Bicentary of the SYW? You are the optimist.... donald
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