Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 8, 2020 7:38:17 GMT
This is a question directed to Hat Industrie but also for others to post their thoughts. Im not making a political stand, just a thought about where things are going globally currently.
I notice often that there are manufacturing issues with sets waiting to be released, most recently on a thread about 7YW Austrians. Also there is the constant remarks about the speed at which sets get made.
Then there is the reports on the news about how things are degrading in the Wests relationship with the East.
Now my difficult question to Hat is this. Is it the case that most of Hats manufacturing takes place in China and if so, is this a good idea long term?
Now with current political issues slowly getting worse between the Western nations and China, with threats from both sides made towards trade, would it be that now is the time to switch manufacturing to a different nation? One which doesnt have such a turbulent relationship and perhaps has better quality control? Somewhere where greater control of the manufacturing and distribution process can take place?
Maybe this might mean a few extra £, $ or € to a box, due to things such as wages being higher, but if it means quality goes up and production is quicker, I think people would be prepared pay that little bit more.
Now in the real world, little plastic soldiers fade into insignificance when taking international conflicts & business into account. This is simply a observation about where things are going in terms of trade with China, and whether sooner or later, this will take a massive hit as politics interferes with business & manufacturing.
I dont think anyone wants to see Hat disappear due to the loss of ability to make their sets. With sanctions and tariffs badly affecting those businesses caught up in a political conflict.
I DO NOT want this thread to turn into some nasty anti-China thing so please dont turn it into such.
Its an adult discussion about whether we should be worried about where things are going and whether items made in China will become really difficult to obtain and would quality control suffer.
|
|
|
|
Post by pll on Jul 8, 2020 13:15:15 GMT
Thoughtful observations Roger. I too have thought about the possible consequences of the growing tensions between the UK/China and US/China and how that might impact on the flow of HAT products to the West from Chinese manufacturers as well as at what cost if tariff wars follow. And of course this would ultimately would impact on all all of us as customers. This not only affects HAT but most other manufactures of model soldiers since most of the manufacturing happens in China. I guess it is for HAT to consider what the business risks are for potential trade disruptions between China and the West and whether that warrants having alternative arrangements to offset those risks. Any business would want to go through that kind of process as part of managing risks and uncertainty. I thought at some stage in the past some of the manufacturing of their products was in North America (I might be wrong on that). It is legitimate for us to raise our concerns but it is ultimately up to HAT to makes its own assessments and business decisions which includes keeping its customer base content and happy to purchase what they produce into the future.
|
|
|
|
Post by waynew on Jul 8, 2020 17:21:40 GMT
I have often been concerned about the US (or any nation) losing an entire industry. The injection-molded plastic being just one of many. I remember seeing the trend start in the 90s when there was the "Second Golden Age" of toy soldiers. We saw more and more of our plastic guys being made in China. As far as 1/32 scale figures go, Bill McMaster who ran BMC toy soldiers was instrumental in assisting a lot of the US 1/32 scale guys started by providing contacts in China where the factories, just getting started, were eager for the business. But he's been gone five years now (hard to believe, he was a genuinely nice man).
For a "Mom and Pop" outfit - and remember the majority (I won't say "all" as there seems to be always ONE exception) of the companies making our toy soldiers are what we call in the USA "Mom and Pop" businesses - meaning small operations, usually owned and operated by private individuals. The days of the large toy soldier makers like Louis Marx, MPC, and others are gone - for a Mom and Pop outfit, the Chinese at that time offered an economically viable way to get their figures produced. Back then, even considering shipping costs and import charges it was actually cheaper to have your figures done in China than in the US.
So folks sent out to China to have their figures done. Injected molded toy soldiers made in the USA died for the most part. Of course without competition and with the booming of the Chinese economy, the Chinese were able to charge more for their services. At the same time, as has been brought up before on this forum, even though a run of a set of toy soldiers is a great financial investment for a small business, the average run of a mold of figures (and I think the last I heard from another source was the minimum run is 5,000) is small potatoes to a factory compared to other orders. So toy soldiers usually go back in the line for larger orders.
I always think of Cunnyngham Collectibles, Beau is a great guy who loves toy soldiers. He produced one of the best sets of ACW Confederate Infantry out there. His problem was distribution. After investing all that money into making the set he ended up with a garage of cartons of toy soldiers he was having problems selling. He had hoped to come out with a set of Union figures that looked to me to be just as good as his Confederates but wasn't able to get it done. Sad. We make our demands on the guys who make our soldiers and of course customer feedback is important; but remember the risk these folks make to provide us our figures.
This has been the bane of anyone in the USA trying to do toy soldiers in the US for about the last twenty years or so as the Chinese economy has gotten stronger and our own plastics industry evaporated. In the past few years we've seen several of the former leaders retire and sell out their figures and molds, with others trying to carry on. More power to them.
The Russian companies have not had this disadvantage because as I understand they control their entire production process and also use a different system of molding. Their tradeoff is they can produce figures more cheaply, but at the cost of having molds that wear out more quickly. Therefore most of them are limited run. You'd better get them now because they might not be there later - or if you can find them they'll be more expensive. Yes, I know someone can still find this or that set on Ebay for a good price every now and then, but as a general rule...
So, in these days of political, economic, and even medical uncertainty, if I was in the toy soldier business I think I would be on the lookout for an alternative to China. It's not necessarily anti-China, just smart business.
Now, I've said plastic toy soldier production in the USA died out in the late 90s (or somewhere thereabouts), but I see hope on the horizon with Jeff Imhelt (sp?) buying out Bill McMaster's BMC toys as well as getting control of production of a lot of the toy soldier molds my generation played with in the 50s and 60s from Marx and MPC. The neat thing is - he is producing his figures in the US from what I gather. I know he has the old Timmee molds (for those of you who grew up in the 60s and 70s you saw bags of their GIs and their tanks and other stuff in the stores) and is making them in the States. If I was an American producer (wink, wink, nudge, nudge) I'd get up with him and see if something could be worked out. JMO
Sorry so long on this.
|
|
|
|
Post by pll on Jul 10, 2020 9:30:42 GMT
Really interesting to hear more about how this sector has changed over the decades. So thanks for your input and reflections Wayne. There is a lot of knowledge and captured experience out there amongst forum contributors. Many of us have a lifetime of experience. I very much hope HAT listens and can make good use of this.
|
|
|
|
Post by waynew on Jul 10, 2020 22:15:39 GMT
Really interesting to hear more about how this sector has changed over the decades. So thanks for your input and reflections Wayne. There is a lot of knowledge and captured experience out there amongst forum contributors. Many of us have a lifetime of experience. I very much hope HAT listens and can make good use of this. I believe they listen more than we realize - or give them credit for, even if we don't always realize it. |
|
|
|
Post by Stan on Jul 12, 2020 15:23:03 GMT
Indeed a thoughtful remark and I think it is good to take these things in account. I would even support paying a few euro extra knowing the figures are made under good circumstances and in a fairtrade production chain. Again no nasty strings attached but I think it is indeed better to come loose from China and move production to for example the USA, whit easy acces to both UK and Europe. This is a question directed to Hat Industrie but also for others to post their thoughts. Im not making a political stand, just a thought about where things are going globally currently. I notice often that there are manufacturing issues with sets waiting to be released, most recently on a thread about 7YW Austrians. Also there is the constant remarks about the speed at which sets get made. Then there is the reports on the news about how things are degrading in the Wests relationship with the East. Now my difficult question to Hat is this. Is it the case that most of Hats manufacturing takes place in China and if so, is this a good idea long term? Now with current political issues slowly getting worse between the Western nations and China, with threats from both sides made towards trade, would it be that now is the time to switch manufacturing to a different nation? One which doesnt have such a turbulent relationship and perhaps has better quality control? Somewhere where greater control of the manufacturing and distribution process can take place? Maybe this might mean a few extra £, $ or € to a box, due to things such as wages being higher, but if it means quality goes up and production is quicker, I think people would be prepared pay that little bit more. Now in the real world, little plastic soldiers fade into insignificance when taking international conflicts & business into account. This is simply a observation about where things are going in terms of trade with China, and whether sooner or later, this will take a massive hit as politics interferes with business & manufacturing. I dont think anyone wants to see Hat disappear due to the loss of ability to make their sets. With sanctions and tariffs badly affecting those businesses caught up in a political conflict. I DO NOT want this thread to turn into some nasty anti-China thing so please dont turn it into such. Its an adult discussion about whether we should be worried about where things are going and whether items made in China will become really difficult to obtain and would quality control suffer. |
|
|
|
Post by pinotnoir on Jul 16, 2020 1:28:08 GMT
Handwriting was on the wall three years ago. Don't know if the Seattle part of HaT has an option anymore. Chinese producers have eaten more than one US toy soldier company.
|
|
