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Post by minuteman on Oct 20, 2018 10:16:04 GMT
I've just read the PSR report on this new set, and agree with what it says almost entirely; I rarely 'disagree' anyway with the measured and well-thought reviews that PSR produce, it's an amazing information resource.
The key points that PSR make are that the figures are historically accurate, generally well sculpted and produced….and also lack almost entirely in pose variety, hence their score of 1 out of 10. the fact that there are only 20 figures in this box is also emphasised. Also, that the box art is misleading (since it shows a soldier loading his musket).
So...a very good case then for at least two further sets in the MAC format of French Napoleonic infantry in greatcoats. Ok I know that we already have the Young Guard, but that was one of the very earliest HaT sets and really doesn't compare well with the latest sculpting.
However, as the Young Guard are already in my armies as general French infantry in greatcoats, the mere two sets of 8234 (40 figures) that I've purchased merely serve to 'fill in' a gap in the ranks of hundreds of greatcoated infantry as a few 'elites' with different headgear, and perhaps a few 'guards' behind the main battle line. Pretty much a supporting rather than leading role. A shame really, as I do like the three poses that this set provides. If only we had more, a lot more....
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Post by joe5790 on Oct 20, 2018 11:02:51 GMT
Well, it's not like this was the only set that was released. I'm almost certain that the amount of poses was reduced due to costs, as the other boxes have about 5 poses each.
Sculptors aren't cheap, and HaT went out of their way to give options in the Marching and command boxes, and that's an added cost that, in my opinion is a very good investment as now HaT doesn't need to ever develop a new set of the same infantry again, and maybe even discontinuing the older sets depicting the same period.
So, a sacrifice must have had to been made, and the Greatcoats were the unfortunate casualty.
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Post by Steve W on Oct 21, 2018 0:16:08 GMT
I am planning to use these figures to create some battalions of Marine Artillery, which served with distinction in 1813-14. Officers and drummers to be converted from Revell's Guard Grenadiers, when I can find some.
BTW, the 1 out of 10 on PSR was for the number of poses, not an overall mark...
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Post by waynew on Oct 21, 2018 4:59:43 GMT
I thought the remarks and grades were fair overall; however, in a set of a stated limited scope such as this one I thought a "1" a bit harsh for number of poses - I could understand even a "5" as perhaps a few more variations of the marching pose could have been included. But basically, you had two marching poses and one standing at attention. I guess one could ding a point for accuracy because the title of the set IS "Marching?"
Just kidding. Actually a pretty good review and I think the set is a valuable addition. I would like to agree with Minuteman that more set matching this style in the MAC format would be welcomed so we could have a matching army. But I'm patient - I haven't even mentioned Pommeranian Piccolo Players this post.
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Post by endeavour on Oct 21, 2018 17:35:04 GMT
Well, it's not like this was the only set that was released. I'm almost certain that the amount of poses was reduced due to costs, as the other boxes have about 5 poses each. Sculptors aren't cheap, and HaT went out of their way to give options in the Marching and command boxes, and that's an added cost that, in my opinion is a very good investment as now HaT doesn't need to ever develop a new set of the same infantry again, and maybe even discontinuing the older sets depicting the same period. So, a sacrifice must have had to been made, and the Greatcoats were the unfortunate casualty. I'm afraid I don't understand the comment about ever having to develop a new set of the same type. What type? The guys in tunics or the guys in greatcoats? And which sets are you suggesting Hat should discontinue?? Wouldnt any discontinuance hamper those just coming to the hobby? these new greatcoats only match the Young Guard set(except in height and build sadly) and they don't really fit along side some of the more animated young guard poses. I'm hoping for another "action" set in Greatcoats, though a command set may be beyond hope. For now, like Steve W I'm back filling my greatcoat battalions, but the new static standing pose and the marching poses don't really go with the old running or lunging poses. But hope springs eternal |
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Post by joe5790 on Oct 21, 2018 19:44:53 GMT
I meant that HaT doesn't need to restock any of their older sets or develop any new sets depicting the periods in question. For example, the Early to Mid French Infantry completely makes their older 1808-1812 boxset redundant meaning that they no longer have to restock the older set. By extension they would never need to hire a sculptor (3D CAD or otherwise) to make new masters for these period in question as this box covers it perfectly (and the action box will complete the range when it is developed and released). All they need to do now is keep restocking it. As to hampering those coming into the hobby. Not at all. Discontinuing old lines is nothing new, especially when you have something new to replace them. As to the Greatcoat infantry, I feel that these are more to fill out the campaign dress infantry ranks, rather than for full Greatcoat units. I think it was the PSR review that says that sometimes new recruits were only issued with the coat with the expectation that the uniform would come later. So if I had a box of them, that is what I would do with them. Even then, only two poses would be more than enough for me (I mean my Swedish infantry only have a single marching pose model and a lot of really terrible poses for my purposes and the Austrian Landwehr box does a better job of depicting Swedish troops than the dedicated box). |
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Post by endeavour on Oct 21, 2018 20:40:52 GMT
I meant that HaT doesn't need to restock any of their older sets or develop any new sets depicting the periods in question. For example, the Early to Mid French Infantry completely makes their older 1808-1812 boxset redundant meaning that they no longer have to restock the older set. As to the Greatcoat infantry, I feel that these are more to fill out the campaign dress infantry ranks, rather than for full Greatcoat units. I think it was the PSR review that says that sometimes new recruits were only issued with the coat with the expectation that the uniform would come later. So if I had a box of them, that is what I would do with them. Even then, only two poses would be more than enough for me (I mean my Swedish infantry only have a single marching pose model and a lot of really terrible poses for my purposes and the Austrian Landwehr box does a better job of depicting Swedish troops than the dedicated box). I couldn't possibly agree that the original 100 piece 1808-12 infantry set is now redundant, especially when "replaced"by 24 figure sets. The original large set with the new command set will give it all it needed, I.e. an eagle. As to the comments on the new Greatcoat figures of course they can't be used for a complete unit. They are flank companies! The centre companies were distinctly different, hence the use of the Young Guard figures as the centre companies with no epaulettes and single cross belt. The point I was raising is that when mixed with the young guard figures they only fit in with the marching element. The more dynamic action figures in that set would do better alongside equally dynamic flank company figures. Who knows, one day we may see a minimalist box of action figures for the greatcoated infantry of the late war period. If that does ever transpire I hope the Young Guard set will not have been one designated redundant and discontinued. |
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Post by Brian on Oct 21, 2018 22:09:34 GMT
I think this set of figures is okay but it could have been so much better if Hat had of produce more of the poses used in the 1/32 scale version, only 3 of the 10 poses have been used so I call for support for Hat to make another set using the remaining 7 poses which of course will include that magnificent officer. 93119310Oh and the set needs to a slightly bigger to fit in with other set around 23.5 to 24mm. |
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Post by joe5790 on Oct 21, 2018 23:59:21 GMT
endeavour But think of the cost involved. It is probably cheaper, and therefore more sustainable for HaT to make and restock 24 model boxes vs the 100 model boxes. It is less plastic per box being used meaning that they can make more boxes to sell and probably make more money than the 100 model boxes (the 24 model boxes cost £4.50 which nets HaT £18 for 4 boxes providing 96 models vs I guess £10 per similar number of models box). Why continue to restock a box that costs twice if not three times as much as the newer smaller box to make that covers the same time frame and probably will not net you as much profit? So, they could discontinue the older box if they wanted to (and in my opinion the sculpting of some of the models in that larger box are questionable at best, I mean the strides of the marching infantry look like they are doing a comedy routine) and when they get the Action pose infantry released they may as well discontinue the older sets. However, more importantly, once there is a viable replacement, some of the older sets should just be discontinued. Especially if the older models sculpting could have been done better. And in my opinion the Young Guard fall into that category. But that's just me.
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Post by waynew on Oct 22, 2018 3:57:44 GMT
endeavour But think of the cost involved. It is probably cheaper, and therefore more sustainable for HaT to make and restock 24 model boxes vs the 100 model boxes. It is less plastic per box being used meaning that they can make more boxes to sell and probably make more money than the 100 model boxes (the 24 model boxes cost £4.50 which nets HaT £18 for 4 boxes providing 96 models vs I guess £10 per similar number of models box). Why continue to restock a box that costs twice if not three times as much as the newer smaller box to make that covers the same time frame and probably will not net you as much profit? So, they could discontinue the older box if they wanted to (and in my opinion the sculpting of some of the models in that larger box are questionable at best, I mean the strides of the marching infantry look like they are doing a comedy routine) and when they get the Action pose infantry released they may as well discontinue the older sets. However, more importantly, once there is a viable replacement, some of the older sets should just be discontinued. Especially if the older models sculpting could have been done better. And in my opinion the Young Guard fall into that category. But that's just me. I should think Demand would dictate whether HaT would re-issue or "retire" any set or not. The major expenses of producing those sets already released has been paid. From what I know of the process (which might be very little), running restocks is pretty easy and much, much less expensive to the company. The problem with restocks, as I understand it from talking to several who have produced toy soldiers, is waiting in the queue at the factory to get the molds run. Toy soldier companies (as has been repeated numerous times) tend to be small (in the larger scheme of things) "Mom and Pop" operations whose orders of 10,000 or so sprues (I forget what the minimum run was/is) is small when compared with the huge orders of much larger companies. I remember talking to one guy at the Texas Show who produced 1/32 figure; he told me his order had been "delayed" three times that he knew of. Various excuses were given, but he knew what was going on was his "small" order was being kicked back to make way for larger, more lucrative jobs. So it's not always cost that delays figures - though that does come into play. But it is MUCH much cheaper for HaT - and faster - for HaT (or any company) to re-run an already released set than it would be to start from scratch and start all over again on a new set; unless there is absolutely zero demand for that set. I have to admit I was not fond of the style of 8095 when they first came out but bought some anyway as they were an improvement over my old Airfix Line Infantry. I grew fond of them, even though I usually prefer a more realistic feel to my figures. I guess it was the same with the Russian Militia - they kind of grew on me, too. The thing is, SOME people like they style - it's kind of like 28mm collectors who prefer the Perry style over HaT's more anatomically correct style as of late. There's no accounting for taste. The advantage of a large box such as the militia and French Line is that one can buy himself pretty much all the figures he needs for a nice army in one box. The Elites set makes a great add-on to complete the picture. Personally, I would love HaT to come out full MAC to match their new sets - but I don't know I won't use my older figures as other units brigaded separately. Besides, I don't think HaT should start ANY new projects until they finally do Pommeranian Piccolo Players and Bavarian Basoonists. |
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Post by joe5790 on Oct 22, 2018 7:58:05 GMT
You would hope that demand would be a big influence, but the biggest influence is how much profit they can make that would be the biggest influence. My simplistic example above shows why the smaller box is a better for them in the long run vs the larger box.
I'm not saying that HaT will or wouldn't restock the older set. Im saying they could, and in the long run it would be a good business move if they did discontinue the older set. They have a viable replacement for it (minus the Action poses but those will come in time) meaning that the older set is surplus to requirements.
Also, think of any other miniatures manufacturers (or any company for that matter). How many of them keep a product that they developed years ago, but then released a newer, better, version of it and keep selling the older product? The demand for the product hasn't changed as many people still want them, but they aren't going to keep the older product in production as they spent so much money developing the new product and obviously they want it to sell well. Having the older, cheaper version still in production doesn't make them enough to cover the expenses they incurred developing the new product. So it would be discontinued in favour of the new product.
Money talks way more than demand for something.
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Post by endeavour on Oct 22, 2018 9:34:00 GMT
Well said Wayne, though Catalonian Claranetists come way before Bavarian Bassonists
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Post by waynew on Oct 22, 2018 20:20:38 GMT
Well said Wayne, though Catalonian Claranetists come way before Bavarian Bassonists I should guess that would depend on whether you preferred beer to wine. |
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Post by waynew on Oct 22, 2018 20:26:48 GMT
You would hope that demand would be a big influence, but the biggest influence is how much profit they can make that would be the biggest influence. My simplistic example above shows why the smaller box is a better for them in the long run vs the larger box. I'm not saying that HaT will or wouldn't restock the older set. Im saying they could, and in the long run it would be a good business move if they did discontinue the older set. They have a viable replacement for it (minus the Action poses but those will come in time) meaning that the older set is surplus to requirements. Also, think of any other miniatures manufacturers (or any company for that matter). How many of them keep a product that they developed years ago, but then released a newer, better, version of it and keep selling the older product? The demand for the product hasn't changed as many people still want them, but they aren't going to keep the older product in production as they spent so much money developing the new product and obviously they want it to sell well. Having the older, cheaper version still in production doesn't make them enough to cover the expenses they incurred developing the new product. So it would be discontinued in favour of the new product. Money talks way more than demand for something. Joe, I think my post would explain that set already to go (actually already produced) reduces the cost of production (hence more profit); couple that with demand that means more money in HaT's pocket. After all, reduced production costs means higher profit. Now, all things being equal - if you have two sets ready to go - the smaller set might gain you more profit by being cheaper to produce. But you have to ask yourself - the small set being sold at a lower price is the profit margin for a smaller set really greater than for the more costly larger set? The current 20 - 24 figure set sell for much less than the big box sets. I think the math speaks for itself. I'm not saying HaT might not be well served to issue a set of figures to match the newer issues, but with the long list of sets in queue I don't see it happening soon. Of course, I could be wrong. |
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Post by Graeme on Oct 23, 2018 5:50:50 GMT
The number of poses in the Greatcoats set is due to the fact that these are scaled down versions of the figures in the 1/32 set which has both marching and action figures, so only two marching poses; and the 1/32 Command set which has another marching pose. Therefore there were masters already available for three marching poses.
As to the 24 and 20 figure sets being cheaper, they will be cheaper to produce certainly. As Wayne said initial production costs are much higher than restock costs and cutting fewer figures into a mould costs less. But I don't think it is necessarily the case that restocking a smaller set is cheaper than a larger one. If I remember correctly HaT has told us before that the amount of plastic used does not make that much difference to the overall cost of a set and, anyway, I think we need to look at the cost of the number of figures HaT want to make, which ideally should be based on the number of figures their customers want to buy.
If I am the customer and I want to buy 100 figures I can buy one box of the 100 figure set. Put the case that four sprues can fit in the injection moulder tool, then HaT pays for one run of the injection moulder and the making of one box and I get my 100 figures. With the 24 figure set I have to buy 4 boxes to get nearly 100 figures or five boxes if it's a 20 figure set. Unless 16 or 20 of the smaller sprues can be fit into the tool that means haT is paying for more than one run of the injection moulder and paying to make four or five boxes in order to get those 100 figures. Also, I haven't measured this but I have a feeling that 16 or 20 of the smaller sprues just might use more plastic than four of the larger ones. Which means that I doubt there is an economy in the smaller sets when it comes to restocks.
Joe. Your point about HaT getting a better return from the smaller sets is a good one and I suppose money does talk but who's money talks loudest. Is it the amount of profit a manufacturer makes on a set that counts or the amount a customer is prepared to pay to get the set. If a customer refuses to buy a set because it's too expensive then the manufacturer makes no profit on it.
HaT needs to know that if you read some of the other forums there is a lot of ill feeling towards these small sets with some people feeling like they have been cheated. While I think it's true that there are some HaT bashers out there who actively seek any excuse to criticise HaT, and that perhaps they shouldn't be listened to when they claim "I'm not buying this HaT set because...", simply because I don't think these people ever buy a HaT set anyway; I think it is also true that there are some genuine people, who are genuine HaT customers, who have genuine concerns about these small sets.
There are also people who are saying that HaT sets have always been particularly good value and these smaller sets are still cheap. It has also been pointed out that for a long time HaT did not increase their prices and absorbed any increases in production costs so, perhaps, we should expect some price rises. A very good point and perhaps these sets are not as unfair as people think, but the fact is some people THINK they are unfair and perception is important.
There was some amount of criticism of the 24 figure sets on the HaT forum too, I notice that after that thread HaT ran a poll asking whether people thought infantry sets should contain 48, 60, or 96 figures. most people nominated 48 figures as the standard they were used to. I can't imagine HaT would ask the question without intending to act on the answer so I would guess that future infantry sets will be 48 figures.
I'm not ready for any sets to be discontinued just yet, I still want some of the 1808-12 infantry and I want a few more of the French fusiliers set. As for them being replaced by a better product I think that hasn't happened yet. There are masters for action figures for the Elites in Greatcoats and I think HaT has said these will be made, I really hope that that fabulous looking officer will appear in 1/72 as well. But the other marching and command sets were, I think, made to provide extra marching and command figures to older sets that had already been made in the pre MAC days, so there are no masters of action figures available and I haven't heard that any are planned for the future. I would encourage HaT to make some action figures to match the new marching and command sets though. I'd buy them and I know there are others here who would.
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Post by Forum Admin on Oct 23, 2018 6:51:08 GMT
Thanks for your comments. Those 4 French sets were among the last of the old sets completed years ago but not released until recently. I think the level of energy and involvement in the production of the new sets speaks for itself.
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Post by endeavour on Oct 23, 2018 19:02:15 GMT
Thanks for your comments. Those 4 French sets were among the last of the old sets completed years ago but not released until recently. I think the level of energy and involvement in the production of the new sets speaks for itself. Dear Admin, I can't work out from this or any other thread how much energy and involvement there has been in the production of the new sets, or indeed which sets ARE the new sets. Care to elaborate? |
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Post by Marc on Oct 25, 2018 21:19:36 GMT
What would be good would be to see the action and command figures released, as another mini box, to give us the entire 1/32 range in 1/72. With digital scanning, surely this should be possible.
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Post by Steve W on Oct 26, 2018 6:41:48 GMT
By the way, none of the latest batch of sets have turned up in shops in Melbourne. Can't wait for them to arrive!!
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